SpiritSeeker

Good Natured - Origins of Right & Wrong in Animals by Frans De Wall

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[this is good]

Seems like a very interesting book - one I might add to my reading list!

My opinion of your opinion }:-> Humans actually go a step further over other animals in their development of objective knowledge, I don't think human "culture" in se is too impressive. The possession of objective knowledge, being largely an exercise in exosomatic adaptation, gives humans a distinct advantage in our survival - as Popper puts it, we can "sacrifice our theories instead of our skins". Culture itself is a byproduct of many things, including cooperation, knowledge, beliefs, and technologies. Morality is not sufficiently explained by culture, as morality precedes it, yet it seems morality is certainly affected/complicated by both culture and objective knowledge. I wonder how many adaptive benefits exist that one might attribute to "culture", of which our development of objective knowledge was not the greater causation? I think even culture itself, at least it benefits us, cannot escape owing this to the evolution of objective knowledge. Faith in culture as what separates from other animals as oppossed to our objective knowledge seems like just another rehashing of tribalism. To wit, when culture clashes with objective knowledge we end up with things like ritual mutilation and genocide. Just my stream of counsciousness on the matter };^D

I meant to say this: "I think even culture itself, at least [when] it benefits us, cannot escape owing this to the evolution of objective knowledge."

Culture is a fascinating yet rather loose concept since it is hard to define precisely. Even certain scientific beliefs seem to become cultural beliefs when the become so closely held that they define a world view or paradigm though which other knowledge is interpreted. The shift in these paradigms is what gives rise to scientific revolutions as when the theory of plate tectonics in geology superseded the static view of earth against much opposition.

The value we place on gaining objective knowledge is a cultural value of modern society that clashes with other older cultural values dealing with respect for authority, pleasing the divine, etc. As you mentioned cultures with this trait are much better at survival and growth than those that do not have it.

I was just pointing out in my "personal opinion" that humans innately tend to believe that conformance to cultural beliefs or behaviors is "good" and that opposing them is "bad". This is a problem for morality since these cultural values seem to be arbitrary. Even our value on objective knowledge as a means for greater security is arbitrary. If happiness is the value of a society would objective knowledge be so highly valued?
[this is good]

Remarkable. We have such difficult balances to maintain, don't we?

And I didn't realize how challenging chimp society is - felt bad for the beaten ones (who lingered, and delayed feeding).

Cohesion is tricky - I so much enjoyed this. I'd like to read it, but I'll have to stop if "anyone" is badly injured,etc. Is it mostly OK that way?

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Within their own groups Chimps do not really hurt each other too much. Usually one bite or a few hits is all that is needed to get the aggressor's point across.

The most gruesome scene mentioned in the book is how chimps kill the small prey they catch during a hunt. They just rip it apart. *shudders*.
They just rip it apart Guh. OK, I'm never complaining again, about how long it takes to microwave a frozen entree. Ever.

I'll look for the book - thanks a lot!!!!
[this is good]

IMHO, on some level I can agree with most your propositions I’ve repeated below. However, statements like these are often strung together in an effort to support the arguments of post modernism and moral relativism (i.e. there is no objective truth, or if there is we can have no access to it or know anything about it), or perhaps to imply the need for some mystical transcendence of rational thought to avoid relativism/modernism. I don’t assume you believe in the conclusions of post modernism, moral relativism, or a transcendent supernatural power of mystical knowing, but my response below is to these interpretations, not necessarily yours, since that is what comes to my mind when I read them.

I believe science attempts to approach an objective truth by making conjectures, crafting falsifiable theories, and attempting to refute falsifiable test statements. When a theory contains many risky test statements that, after rigorous attempts at falsification, appear consistent with empirical observation, it’s said to contain truthlikeness – aka the appearance of objective truth. However, [e]ven certain scientific [theories] seem to become cultural beliefs when they become so closely held that they define a world view or paradigm though which other [beliefs are] interpreted. Yet, it’s very important to note that any cultural intepretation of a scientific theory should be disqualified from being considered truthlike, as the informative content of a theory is confined to its predictive test-statements. Even the direct knowledge provided by the test statements of a theory cease to contain truthlikeness once they are either falsified, or are no longer tested (perhaps because they have been accepted as an unquestionable cultural belief!).- The value we place on gaining objective knowledge is a cultural value of modern society that clashes with other older cultural values dealing with respect for authority, pleasing the divine, etc. However, the actual value we obtain from objective knowledge has little or nothing to benefit from cultural interpretation of it. A culture that encourages scientific inquiry has a great influence on the advancement of science, but once the culture begins dogmatizing certain aspects of science, even they begin to inhibit science.- humans innately tend to believe that conformance to cultural beliefs or behaviors is "good" and that opposing them is "bad". I would agree, the cognitive processes related to social conformity, which are beneficial products of adaptive selection in se, can be easily hijacked by the cultural, mystical, and religious experiences. This often results in what appears to be innately counter-intuitive behavior, like belief in immortality explicitly symbolizing an instinctual interaction with the world. Such experiences are easily shared/transferred to others, even if the exact versions of the explicitly stated beliefs often differ from person to person and culture to culture.- This is a problem for morality since these cultural values seem to be arbitrary It’s a bigger problem for a culture that embraces postmodernism, moral relativism, culturalism, mysticism, religion & the like, over science, when it comes to truth. Explicitly stated beliefs and moral values are often quite arbitrary, meaning that for example, a culture consisting of a population sharing the same underlying religious experience can be at war with each other over various conflicting explicitly stated beliefs and moral values, differences which to a scientific observer appear rather arbitrary. These cultures have no efficient centralized process for dealing with disagreements of truth. A culture that embraces science embraces a process of conjectures and refutations. The centralized resolution of intellectual disagreement is inherent to this process, as is the demarcation of arbitrary values and beliefs.

Even our value on objective knowledge as a means for greater security is arbitrary. This I have to disagree with, while one might concoct arbitrary reasons for valuing objective knowledge, the value itself isn’t arbitrary at all. Arbitrary beliefs and values are contingent solely upon one’s discretion; they’re capricious, unreasonable, and unsupported. In contrast, there’s a great deal of evidence supporting the pursuit of objective knowledge to enhance our security. As we both know, threats to our security come from the matter/energy/space of reality, and science helps us understand these threats and mitigate them. Consider these amongst millions of examples: our objective knowledge of astronomy makes us more secure against catastrophic collisions, of physiology/medicine against disease, of thermodynamics against extreme temperatures. It’s the essence of post modernism/relativism to consider objective facts like these as relative cultural truths – one culture values astonomy’s informative content as it relates to comets, one culture doesn’t, thus it’s a relative truth. Yet, if a large comet is hurling towards us at 300 miles per second, it won’t distribute destruction based on what cultures accept the arbitrary relative truth of ‘armageddon via comet destruction’. Nope, we’re all dead, unless a group/culture happens to piece together objective knowledge of things like astronomy, rocket propulsion, nuclear fusion/fission, etc, to provide greater security through a technological innovation. If a culture that manages to accomplish this explicitly states that they did so because they believe a three toed ogre with a magic wart on his arse divinely guided them throughout the process, perhaps their explicit reason is arbitrary, but the value of the act (not being dead) certainly isn’t. However, I think we would more probably expect that a society which managed to accomplish the above feat would be firmly grounded in the rational pursuit of objective knowledge, likely with a culturally embedded awe for the universe and a love of science, not a love for three toed magic wart arsed ogres... }8^> To wit, less than 10% of preeminent scientists in the US believe in three toed magic wart arsed ogres, or any supernatural being for that matter…}8^D

If happiness is the value of a society would objective knowledge be so highly valued?

Great question! Probably not. The short answer might read as follows. “ the greatest happiness principle can easily be made an excuse for a benevolent dictatorship” (Karl Popper) The pursuit of objective knowledge is just as easily misguided or stifled in the name of a greatest happiness principle. Objective knowledge flourishes best within an open society that makes it a matter of public policy to minimize pain and maximize the freedom of individuals, while leaving the increase of happiness largely to private enterprise. As Popper said, “...human suffering makes a direct moral appeal for help, while there is no similar call to increase the happiness of a man who is doing well anyway. I actually throw some jain philosophy and peter singer into the mix and take it a step further: to minimize the pain and maximize the freedom of all sentient beings, without tolerating the intolerant or appeasing authoritarianism. I think objective knowledge, and ultimately happiness itself, are maximized in this way.

Just as your review of the book implies, objective knowledge actually predates human culture - it actually predates humans! I find that fascinating in itself.

Peace,

Drac

[this is good]

Speaking of chimp diets, I think we can learn a lot about what diet humans evolved on by studying chimps. As for chimps killing small prey in said fashion - I think the data suggests this would be a rare occurance at best in "chimp culture". The reason being that neither chimps nor early humans ate much meat at all, and most of what we would classify as meat actually came from insects. To wit is the following chart from two sources, Goodall & Conklin, showing time spent on feeding activities sorted by food. Note that since it takes far more time/energy to capture meat and consume it, the amount of meat consumed by chimps is actually a smaller % than the % time spent hunting/feeding.

Goodall
Conklin Item
% time feeding
Fruit
59.5
64
Leaves
21.4
23
Blossoms
4.1
2
Seeds
5.0
3
Insects
4.1
Prey
4
"Meat"
1.4
Galls
0.8
Misc.
4
4

[http://www.ecologos.org/chimphunt.htm]

It has been said that the average chimp might consume the equivalent of a single small pea in insect & small animal meat per day, with insects being eaten mostly. I think it's safe to say the small game hunting incident described would be a rare occurance, and probably a counter-productive activity that had more to do with aggressively asserting position in the group than anything.

The chart reads sloppy, but the gist is that chimps spend 98.6% of their feeding time on fruits, leaves, etc., not animal meat.
[this is good]

Great post! Thank you, I needed a primate lesson. One of my grad teachers (the most intimidating one) studies primates and I'm fairly clueless about it.

One thing about culture, it has been identified in other "lower" thinking animals such as wild cats but in a much more loosely defined way i.e. one species of cat in a certain part of the world will consume one type of food and the same species in some other part of the world will consume something different even if both are available in both places. But I feel we shouldn't exclude non-primates from this "culture" idea.

Also the post reminded me of a show I saw wherein there was this idea that children in tribal and agricultural communities where the families depended on the children's cooperation for the families' or group's survival were better citizens and were more dedicated to the families themselves. Can't remember where I saw that.

I'm a bit late to join the conversation on this one, but I just wanted to mention that if you haven't already read it you might want to check out Michael Shermer's book on evolutionary ethics titled The Science of Good & Evil: Why People Cheat, Gossip, Care, Share and Follow the Golden Rule which even cites this book you've mentioned here and may provide food for thought with regard to these ideas and their relationship to humans specifically.
Cool, I will check it out.

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